Metro style

[TimStone]

I would like to add some comments about Win RT, and the Metro styling. As I said before, I believe this is too large an area to try and move FW into, but if Antonio does that, I'll be happy to work with it and provide any help I can. I just believe what is currently being done is a lot, and it is done so well that I don't think we need to move in other directions. I believe the current FW system(s) will serve us well for many years to come, even with the release of Win 8.

Win RT is only partially about design. The idea is to have a screen that is easy to read, and view/enter data. All of the fancy things should be excluded. Screens no longer jump from one to another ( ie. multiple open windows ), but data is displayed on a panorama which has a dynamic sizing. Thus you can scroll across pages that fit on a screen, or across a larger area that holds quite a bit more data ( like an address book ). This makes the UI simpler across devices, but that is not necessarily the best approach, especially if you are dealing with complex data ( ie. an accounting program ).

The more important part of RT is what you don't see. Its the blending of multiple forms of data from a wide variety of resources, and this is communicated asynchronously. The communication of live data, interactively, is a huge part of the new app designs. It brings the functionality of iOS apps into the Windows world. The big problem with Apple's system is that the two don't merge well, but under Windows these apps work consistently across all devices ( desktop, notebook, tablet, phone ). The method used on one can be used on another. I can do touchscreen or mouse on any of my devices ( even tablet ) and its supported. With Apple, you have touch control on the iPad and iPhone, and Mouse control on the iMac. You have to learn a different pattern for using both devices on the same application. I thought Apple would go touchscreen on the imac this year but it didn't happen, and may not even occur in the future.

I think of Windows 8, with its two UIs, being similar to an iMac with Parallels. The difference is that the iMac can't run all those thousands of apps designed for the ipad and iphone, but Windows 8 can run the same apps across all devices.

As for market ... well with 1 billion plus installs of windows, as people upgrade to Win 8, a developer can write one app and essentially run it on any device. We can expect more tools from Microsoft to make this very easy. Currently, Lightswitch can build a single app and make it desktop, server, or cloud based using selections in the project configuration file ... and I believe we will see it expand to RT and Win 8 phone in the coming months.

There is a lot of change, and the possibilities are amazing. That is why I'm working with all of these tools right now to see what attracts the interest of consumers.

Tim

[TimStone]

One last comment. Someone mentioned the Ribbon bar, and it sounded like they thought it was no longer important. While it is not used in Win RT apps, it is very much the default for Desktop Apps. The Ribbon bar is included in every element of Office 2013, and is used in many other programs by other publishers. It is not going away.

[Otto]

Hello Tim,
thank you for your explanations.
>I believe the current FW system(s) will serve us well for many years to come, even with the release of Win 8.
You are right only we have to give our young FIVEWIN developers perspectives. For me I am 50 plus it is sufficient.

We too still use in our metro like version ribbonbar as the main navigation.
But we do no longer use pupup buttons on the ribbon.
Best regards,
Otto

[Otto]

Here another example. One can operate the software without instruction.
Main nagivation = ribbonbar




Best regards,
Otto

[Gale FORd]

I did not think the ribbon bar was going away. I was just commenting about some people saying we have to use the latest interface or all is lost and a little over a year ago they were asking for backstage.

You can make good or bad decisions on a Metro style interface as well as Ribbon Bar, Regular Button Bar, SDI, or MDI. You have to listen to the users and be guided by what they need, not what we want them to have. Sometimes all they need is a new feature or a change in the processes, not an entire user interface change.

I am reminded of a story about a problem with a high rise building. There were constant complaints about how long people had to wait for the elevators. Concern about loosing tenants the owners started considering what their options were. The cost of re-engineering the elevators or added new ones was very high. So they had a study done to see what the best alternatives were. When the study was done they decided to try one of the suggestions which was to add mirrors around the elevator area. After a certain amount of time the complaints dropped to zero. It seems that people would get distracted by looking at themselves and others in the mirrors and not realize how long they had been waiting. The solution was so much cheaper and simpler than what could have happened.

[Otto]

Another solution for this would be a counter:
10 sec, 9 sec, 8 sec, ....

Best regards,
Otto

[Otto]

To complete this series of screens a add also the new/edit screen.
Best regards,
Otto

[TimStone]

My last reply somehow got bumped off. I don't know what happened to it.

I had commented about "age". I am 66 and have been an xbase programmer for over 30 years ( all the way back to dBase II runtime under CP/M ). I went to a Visual Studio training conference in April thinking I'd be the oldest guy there by a longshot. I may have been, but there were many in their 50's. Learning new programming tools and languages is more challenging than it was even 10 years ago. Age does lend its complications.

This is all a lot to learn, but that makes it interesting.

I have liked your work with the FW metro controls, but my screens seem to be too complex. The upper half of a dialog is for data, and the lower half is a browse. As the browse moves up and down, the data fields in the upper half are updated to the highlighted record, and can be directly edited. I realize that is not how "windows" is supposed to be used. A browse is supposed to bring up a popup. However, I started this in the DOS days, and my clients would walk away if they couldn't do it this way. That just doesn't work out in Metro. There is simply not enough screen real estate. The upper half of the dialog often has 20 to 30 fields displayed. I know I could do a "side by side", but again, the space is generally not there.

It is interesting that Lightswitch has a template to do this which works very well. It has the browse on the left and the detail on the right. It also incorporates tabs on the detail ... all very nice. However, the app is for Windows desktop, not RT.

Tim

[norberto]

Tim,
very well placed as always, agree, and thanks for your wise words.

Otto,
I like your approach of "Metro", your application is very good and professional, I even tried to start using the tools of FWH for my programs, but I discouraged, because when I thought: will run as other applications "Metro" (as tim explained above)? do not. then I stopped, and I'm hoping a solution of Antonio, and trying to use visual studio to create applications for Windows phone.

I understand what you meant about the applications easier for the user, and I agree with you that "Metro" does so, but do not want to stay only in visual, want to do something that has all the new advantages, which go beyond the visual. (as Tim said above and others that he did not mention).

at the moment, as has been said, our programs work 100%, (less in RT and Windows phone), but for the moment, this is great.

last : after more than 1 month using Windows 8, I haven't had a crash (freeze), using 24 x 7, still do not know how is the screen of GPF.

[Otto]

Norberto,
As we decided to sell our software only to use through Remote desktop our software works on all systems.
There are RDP Clients for all systems . RemoteDesktop is the way to go for the kind of business we do.
We use IPhone for the waiters, IPads as ECR hardware for example.
I am sure there is an RDP client on the RT systems.
Do you know if one can enter a SIM Card into Surface.
We do not need SQL because our customers operate over VPN and RDP.
So metro-like Style is for us very good.
Best regards,
Otto

[Otto]

RDP + SERVERBOOK
As we are depending too much from the hardware dealers in the sense of coordinate work we now offer our software installed on what we call SERVERBOOK.
This is a normal Notebook ( i5 or i7 ) with more RAM, 3 years guarantee extension, WINDOWS foundation SERVER, CALs, Antivirus, Office and of cause WINHOTEL installed and a NAS and a USB hard drive for backup.
This way we don’t have to touch running systems. We bring the SERVERBOOK and all is working. We don’t have to coordinate appointments with the hardware dealers.
The existing PC's, notebooks, Phones then work remote.
Best regards,
Otto

[norberto]

Otto,
I use RDP as well in a Server 2008 and 2012, very nice , stable, fast and universal.

Couldn't tell, the release date of the surface this scheduled for the day of the launch of Windows 8, October 26, Windows 8 has a default RDP client included, and I think the RT must have as well. I watched the webcast of the surface, but I believe that the first models shouldn't have SIM slot, but can be placed a usb modem.

Regards

[norberto]

RDP + SERVERBOOK
As we are depending too much from the hardware dealers in the sense of coordinate work we now offer our software installed on what we call SERVERBOOK.
This is a normal Notebook ( i5 or i7 ) with more RAM, 3 years guarantee extension, WINDOWS foundation SERVER, CALs, Antivirus, Office and of cause WINHOTEL installed and a NAS and a USB hard drive for backup.
This way we don’t have to touch running systems. We bring the SERVERBOOK and all is working. We don’t have to coordinate appointments with the hardware dealers.
The existing PC's, notebooks, Phones then work remote.
Best regards,
Otto

Otto,
cool, well thought out. but each case has its solutions, I need to have native access and offline for my applications, so for me, only RDP does not solve all my problems.

Norberto

[TimStone]

The Surface supports a Micro SD card.

[norberto]

Tim, i guess Otto refer to SIM Card, 3G connection.

To Spanish users :

http://windowsteamblog.com/internationa ... dores.aspx